Home Tutorials Download Beta Store Forum Documentation KnowledgeBase Wiki Blog

ShiVa3D

Return to Import

- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Resources Import, formats, techniques and optimisation

- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby ThunderZ » 27 Oct 2008, 22:19

Ok if we here it's that we all know and we love work with Shiva that is an really great tool :)

Your offer for this tools is very complet and very agressive in the market for pro and indie dev.

The main problem for low cost team/studio and/or for indie is the pipeline part.
Only support 1 format for the input is great choice in your case because of the collada format.
BUT this is also an weakness because the parser of your collada loader have to be very very strong to parse lot of different output type because lot of dev will not respect 100% of the devsheet of the collada format (and well some time the XML format too).

There actually lot of modeling software for static object and a little less with animation support and well less again that are free :)

I personatly use Wings 3D for all the modeling part.
I never saw and faster modeling tool and UV.
I use Truespace 7.6 or Blender for the animation part when i need it.

All of those 2 products could export DAE files and well nobody succes to create and good dae export for Shiva.

That i could propose with the community is to make some basic sample of different software to make DAE pipeline more robust.

Here the tools for the test :
Truespace 7.6 -> http://www.caligari.com/
Blender -> http://www.blender.org/
Wings 3D -> http://www.wings3d.com/
FBX Convertor from Autodesk -> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/it ... id=9256041


And Here Some Link of test i made or interesting file for you parser ;) :
Image
--> BlenderSample.zip

Result :
Direct Export to DAE from blender.
DAE file export well mesh but no materiel color, no squeleton and no animation.
Image


Export to FBX from Blender and Convert FBX with AutoDesk Tools.
Mesh and Color and Squeleton are ok but there is no animation imported.
Image



Here and other blender animation (and same result) :
Image
--> Fbx_test_examples.zip




TrueSpace test with and complex model :
Image
--> TS_winnie_walking.zip
Export of the first mesh ok.
Only Materiel need to add manualy the normal map (texture is imported but material not create well)
2nd mesh importer but bad position and global attachement hierachie, material and texture not well importer (for this part this is the TrueSpace exporter that is in fault, check the DAE, you could correct material manuatly).
And in the 2 case, squeleton is well importer but with and rotation and not attached to the mesh.
And well no animation is imported. :(
Image


Basic Model :
Cow :
--> cow.dae
--> Cow.png
Static Mesh Import Ok (YOU NEED TO KEEP Z WRITE ON)

Box :
--> box.dae
--> box.fbx
Basic animated box not imported on shiva.




Other interesting test from an other tools similars with Shiva -> Quest 3D :
All this exemple come from :
http://support.quest3d.com/index.php?title=COLLADA
And well no one could be imported into Shiva.
--> ColladaSimpleScene.zip
--> ColladaDoors.zip
--> ColladaMultiTexture.zip
--> ColladaBump.zip
--> ColladaReflection.zip


Well here is my test today.
Shiva DAE parser work well (in 90% of the case) on static mesh and you have lot of tools to create static mesh.
For the animated one this is an other work to have an animated model exported correctly and that could be parser in Shiva.

It could be interesting if the community works on the subject ;)
And well dev too :D
We know that Shiva personal data need to keep secret and that you could not support all the format but let use know how your parser work, what are the main key check in the dae file so we could maybe write and exporter that will be more friendly whith Shiva ;)

All least Collada 1.5 spec :
--> collada_spec_1_5.pdf
Web Site : Angel Software
Shiva Store : Debug Info Panel - FREE
User avatar
ThunderZ
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 429
Location: France - Loiret

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby broozar » 27 Oct 2008, 23:16

animation with truespace *.dae files does work. you don't seem to be too familiar with shiva's animation concept, you wiill need an animBank and import the model again as animClip, drag the animClip into the animBank and drag the animBank over the model to make animations work.
(see step 3 here http://developer.stonetrip.com/Import-f ... ation.html )

however, the truespace bone sets appear to be rotated. i have started a topic about this, http://developer.stonetrip.com/index.ph ... 4&catid=12 if you can help with this, together we might be finally getting the truespace->shiva pipeline to work 100% :)


you got the blender fbx to work with the autodesk converter, good, so, if you follow my description about the animBank process in shiva, do you get animations to work? i don't use blender too often and are too unexperienced to test it myself.

currently, i'm trying to convince the newtek developers to have a look at their dae exporter again. often, it's not the importer that tries to load the model, but the exporter... as you can see here
http://developer.stonetrip.com/index.ph ... mitstart=6


ps: wings3d forever! :lol:
CM ShiVa Technologies SAS
User avatar
broozar
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 3483
Location: Berlin - Germany

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby ThunderZ » 28 Oct 2008, 00:19

No it understand very well the concept of animation in Shiva i just maybe don't express my mind very well in english (i'm french at all :p).

For blender you right i don't express right my self.
Blender exporter himself don't give me good result for the animation part.
BUT if use Blender to export to FBX and then to DAE that work.
I just don't have the good reasult on timing.
in blender -> fbx -> dae the animation always be on 0 - 597.
You could easily change it after in the animeclip editor but dunno what.
In the animation bones and squeletton seem to be exported correctly but it seem that part of one bone don't seem to be right rigged when animation is showing :
Image
I've to make more test with blender to sek the limitation.
But well actually :
Blender -> Export FBX -> Autodesk FBX to Collada seem to be the better when to export animated model from blender.
If people have some animated model in blender to make other test it could be nice.


With TrueSpace the problem is a bit different.
The Squeleton is exported with and different matrice of the model.
Dunno actually if it's an error of TrueSpace exporter or Shiva Importer or if there is an option on TrueSpace to correct this (very limited option on exporter).
Maybe the better way will be to correct this directly in the dae file.
But well as you say animation is truly exported but due to the squeleton the rendering part isn't perfect :lol:
The horse of the basic TrueSpace package is an bit special B)
Image


For The Winnie Model there is 2 problem :
The squeleton one like the horse
And the multi-objet hierachie (rigged by an squeleton too).
You could see Winnie's squeleton and his hat squeleton too.
But the 2 squeleton have the same matrix problem.
For the hat the second problem is his position.
When exported all object seem to be exported with the position of the global object in truespace but separatly in dae.
I've try to use the option :
Split Hierarchie in the exporter to split all the parameter of each object.

But this make Shiva crash/freeze on Parse XMl when try to import the model.


PS: Yes i love it :) I never make model as fast that under Wings3D B)
Web Site : Angel Software
Shiva Store : Debug Info Panel - FREE
User avatar
ThunderZ
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 429
Location: France - Loiret

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby broozar » 28 Oct 2008, 08:03

hm, "split hierarchy" doesn't make my shiva crash, but on the other hand, it doesn't solve the matrix problem either, looks exactly the same.

yes the horse is special :lol: it was my test model, too
are you familiar with truespace? do you know any "reset transformation" or "reset pivots" or "freeze transform" or "freeze animation" button? because that's what we might need, that's the key we require even in maya or other packages. i couldn't find it, and to be honest, truespace is only my last resort if nothing else would work, i'm not used to this application.

looking at your blender testtube deformation in shiva, i'd hardly call the blender(fbx)->autodeskConv(dae)->shiva toolchain a good idea.
CM ShiVa Technologies SAS
User avatar
broozar
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 3483
Location: Berlin - Germany

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby NiCoX » 28 Oct 2008, 10:14

Hi,

Each release fixes import problems (I mean we are continuously working on it). We'll test your files and first see if they are valid (as broozar said, sometimes, not to say most of the time, the exporter itself doesn't follow all/strictly the guidelines of the COLLADA specification), and imporove our importer :)

Be sure that the importer is something we won't stop improving :)
User avatar
NiCoX
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 5644
Location: France

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby ThunderZ » 28 Oct 2008, 17:53

Yes NicoX it's for that i open this thread ;)

You couldn't have many sample as many of exporter of the market.
Especiatly those who don't respect 100% of the devsheet of the Collada format.
But we could help use by giving you our test and well our way on the pipeline to have the result ;)

For TrueSpace the problem is that the Squeleton and object have their how matrice and their exported on the dae.
you could see this trought the scene editor for each objet (bone and model).
For the horse for exemeple you will see rotation :
x/y/z
horse 0 / 0 / -90
skeleton 0 / 0 / 0
I'm not an expert with truespace actually for correct this.
I try to reset the matrice and export separatly but don't work.


For Blender try all the test with the 2nd exemple (fbx_test).
There is lot of problem with this pipeline way but could ork for very basic animation ;)
It's cause of some limitation on the exporter of blender (and maybe wrong convertion after with the autodesk toolchain).
But well it's an way :lol:


For the rest NicoX it's nice to see that you will continue to upgrade this critical part ;)
Personnatly i'll continue to make test on this far after that i could write easy tutorial for the community.
You should have and look on the different exemple.
Those of Quest3D for exemple that we could considerate as good because Quest3D could import them.


For the TrueSpace dae exporter that is allready know bug for the filepath.
That are maybe the most easy think to correct directly on shiva or in the file ;)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/s ... php?t=6075
Web Site : Angel Software
Shiva Store : Debug Info Panel - FREE
User avatar
ThunderZ
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 429
Location: France - Loiret

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby blackwind » 29 Oct 2008, 18:01

NiCoX wrote:Hi,

Each release fixes import problems (I mean we are continuously working on it). We'll test your files and first see if they are valid (as broozar said, sometimes, not to say most of the time, the exporter itself doesn't follow all/strictly the guidelines of the COLLADA specification), and imporove our importer :)

Be sure that the importer is something we won't stop improving :)


actually, you should get importers from more modeling tools, and not just improve collada. Also FBX is a must.
This is one of your weakest points... i still dont get why almost nobody talks about this extremely important topic.

cheers,
blackwind
Fresh Boarder
Fresh Boarder
 
Posts: 8

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby broozar » 29 Oct 2008, 18:18

since autodesk is on an i-buy-every-major-3d-package-out-there course (maya, now xsi, filmbox/motionBuilder), fbx has become some kind of autodesk-exclusive-exchange format with no real open specifications, so the slogan "open-standard, platform-independent file format" has become a bad joke. i consider fbx a dead end, since even maya's fbx support is reborted to be abysmal.

why does nobody talk about it? because almost all major 3d packages offer the new _truly_ open-standard etc. exchange format, Maya (using ColladaMaya), 3ds Max (using ColladaMax), LightWave 3D (version 9.5), Maxon|Cinema 4D R11, Softimage|XSI, Side Effect's Houdini, MeshLab, SketchUp, Blender, modo and Strata 3D. the quality of the exporters are, however, mixed, no doubt about that. but stonetrip as well as the 3d tool programmers are on it. collada is on the best way to become the "*.3ds for animated files".
CM ShiVa Technologies SAS
User avatar
broozar
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 3483
Location: Berlin - Germany

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby ThunderZ » 29 Oct 2008, 19:48

You're all of you 2 both reason.
For my part i think collada is maybe the best and unique really true open source format with unlimited way (xml is good).
BUT it's also the most weakness part of Shiva.
The pipeline is too weak.
Why ?
Because exporter don't respect the devsheet.
Every exporter use or do the work depending on what they want to export.
And there is no actually freely way to make good work or export with collada support.
So improve the importer is actually the best choice for Shiva.
They couldn't support all the format, so it's better to support only 1 free/open source and extensible format but the importer need to be extremely strong to correct or read lot of different file with maybe error in it.

We could make topic about the good or the bad choice of one unique format or not.
But i prefer talk and well that we work together to create tools / exemple that will create an strong 100% perfect way to create model and import them to Shiva.

That was i open this topic and well start to make search on this problem (because YES IT'S AN REAL AND IMPORTANT PROBLEM FOR SHIVA).

So the real thinks it's now what we will do now for test ;)
Actually the problem with dae importer is in general the animated object.
Static one is generatly well generated and imported.
But the animated one have problem so we need to work on it.

I'm an coder and an limited artist (good for modeling but not very good on animation) so i need model, tools, rigged animation that i could test on different way :)
It could be nice if other try to resolve the problem and that we share it on the community.
Web Site : Angel Software
Shiva Store : Debug Info Panel - FREE
User avatar
ThunderZ
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 429
Location: France - Loiret

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby NiCoX » 29 Oct 2008, 20:59

Hi,

The main problem we encounter with imports is about transforms (translation, rotation, scale and shear), rotation order and axis system : some softwares use a left handed axis system (3DSMax for example), others use a right handed one (ShiVa, Maya, XSI...), and, some softwares express shear as an axis and an angle (XSI...), others as a special matrix (ShiVa, Maya...). And all this parameters together make things hard to solve.

For static objects, problems can easily be solved by freezing transforms before export. But for animated objects, transforms have to be relative, so freezing is just not possible. Most of the time, exporting with the "bake transforms" option checked will correct problems, but sometimes not (mostly when the rotation uses 3 axises). Be sure we are working on smart algorithms to improve that particular point, but that's really a headache :)
User avatar
NiCoX
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 5644
Location: France

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby denbo25 » 07 Nov 2008, 18:08

I notice that when i export a static model from 3dsmax (2009) it is oriented improperly when i import to shiva.

I believe i had the "swap y and Z" option enabled during the export.

For example, if a teapot in Max is oriented with spout facing down +Y, up is +Z, then when i bring it into Shiva, it should be facing down +Z with up +Y.

However, what I get instead is teapot facing down +X with up +Y!

(Yes, the object had reset xform/collapse so it's not the objoffset transform issue from Max.)

Is this going to be fixed in te release today? :)
denbo25
Senior Boarder
Senior Boarder
 
Posts: 53

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby NiCoX » 07 Nov 2008, 18:14

Have you tried tu check the "Convert ZUp to YUp" option in the ShiVa's import dialog box ? :)
User avatar
NiCoX
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 5644
Location: France

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby denbo25 » 07 Nov 2008, 18:21

You mean in the StonTools Max plugin? There is no such option. I have version 1.1.

There's an option in the DAE exporter (Max's) that does axis conversion from Z-Up to Y-up, which is the option I chose.
denbo25
Senior Boarder
Senior Boarder
 
Posts: 53

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby Yopia » 07 Nov 2008, 19:54

NiCoX is talking about this option in the ShiVa's import dialog box :

[img]/images/ImportOptions.jpg[/img]
User avatar
Yopia
Platinum Boarder
Platinum Boarder
 
Posts: 630

Re:- Work to make the DAE Importer more strong -

Postby denbo25 » 07 Nov 2008, 20:34

oh yes, it's checked. sorry i forgot about it because i set it once and don't look at it again. it defaults to checked now when i import.

so the end result is still broken: with or without the dae exporter axis conversion, and with the y/z checkbox in the importer, the model still never comes in properly.

I would accept the model coming in looking down either +Z or -Z, but to have it coming in looking down +X makes no sense to me.

Without the y/z switch on in the importer, it is oriented exactly as it is in max (Z-up) so I would assume it's the import y/z switch feature that is be broken.
denbo25
Senior Boarder
Senior Boarder
 
Posts: 53

Next

Return to Import