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Shiva 2.0 open discussion

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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby kalango » 04 Mar 2012, 23:50

Shiva seem to be a starting point to start publishing to mobile stores and it seems as soon as ppl get money from it they leave the engine. The PC games Shiva can make might be nice for indie environment but still is not that nice. We are basicly buying a starting engine to start doing something, and not to keep evolving and building really known and market effective games. I know most of this is not the shiva team fault, but a limited feature-set with old physics engines and aged graphics sometimes weight too much when you want to build competitive games.

Anyways... i'm hoping for the best, since i paid for the basic license i will use it till it expires, and depending the engine evolution i might not renew my license and go for something else, something that evolves like gamestart, deltaengine, unity, udk or making stuff from scratch with low level engines like Ogre, Irrlicht or even OpenGL.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby RedQueen » 05 Mar 2012, 01:29

Here is what was said under the winter promotion when people was trying to pull information. It seems at the moment everything is hush hush.

admin
February 5, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink | Reply
While our 1.9 objectives are not all completed we won’t talk about 2.0 ! We will announce new consoles supports soon, then ShiVa will cover 90% of the available 3D devices, then it will be 2.0 time
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby makkar » 05 Mar 2012, 01:34

Benton wrote:I mean, 2.0 is LONG LONG LONG overdue. The graphic's that 1x can put out is 2008 from what I can see. I mean, even GameStart has SSAO, deferred rendering, volumetric lighting. ShiVa 1x is ok for simple mobile games, but for anything else, like high end mobile games, PC games, games with next gen graphics...I mean, ShiVa 1x does not even let you make your own shaders. How can I make a good looking PC game when the terrain system is pretty poor, I don't see any support for complex materials, no custom shaders...it needs to be updated.


I think new desktop graphics features sadly became victims of pushing the trendy mobile platforms by Stonetrip.

I have been using Shiva since 2007, and some of the motivation to stay with it came from hope that essential new features would be added soon(er but at least later) as these features become generally implemented to 3D engines around. I hope for heavy graphics update for 2.0, and that this won't happen only next year.

Hope became a factor for the Shiva Asset Store, too. Since I was told around the end of 2010 that Stonetrip had begun working on it, I have invested quite much time and money to prepare products to sell there. But the Asset Store has an increasingly vaporware feeling considering several missed roadmap dates. The store was scheduled to be finally included in the 1.9.1 version according to the editor beta program description ( written around March 2011), but no sign of it yet. And not any communication about it either.

Talking about communication... The new forum user Sharp, who was to be in charge of Stonetrip communication got into quite heavy procrastination: his last forum posting is on January 13th.

All in all, the decision to upgrade to 2.0 would be very much eased with a sane roadmap and respected release dates.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby neilb » 05 Mar 2012, 05:20

GDC 2012 just started according to the GDC website...
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby Benton » 05 Mar 2012, 06:06

What I would give to be in San Fran...sigh

Please please PLEASE let ShiVa 2.0 be showcased there...or at least lets please please PLEASE get some news...
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 05 Mar 2012, 08:53

As for desktop features being pushed back and back: anybody remembers that Stonetrip announced the integration of Allegorithmic Substance earlier than Unity yet Unity has even gotten its first upgrade and soon the mobile addition of it (at the time substances can't be realtime baked on mobile) while Shiva didn't even get another newsitem on the matter since autumn 2010 ...
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby michax » 05 Mar 2012, 14:04

Code: Select all
Anybody remembers that Stonetrip announced the integration of Allegorithmic Substance


Yesterday I was trying to run demo. I don't know why but it don't work anymore.

I was interested because of price promotion http://www.allegorithmic.com/ (690$ off).

Probably It could be possible to integrate allegorithmic using current plugin pipeline.
Last edited by michax on 05 Mar 2012, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby Benton » 05 Mar 2012, 15:26

But if we need to make plugins for every new feature, then ShiVa is not gonna last long. The debugger is good...blackberry support is good...covering 90% of the phone market is good...but not if that means 2.0 comes out later. I mean, who really puts an app out to all the phone platforms. Almost everyone here I see just cares about iOS and Android. Now it might be 6 or more monthes before 2.0 comes out, and its already waaaay overdue. 2.0 better be good.

(I still like ShiVa, I was just really hoping for 2.0 to come out soon, and now im ranting)
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 05 Mar 2012, 16:34

michax wrote:
Code: Select all
Anybody remembers that Stonetrip announced the integration of Allegorithmic Substance


Yesterday I was trying to run demo. I don't know why but it don't work anymore.

I was interested because of price promotion http://www.allegorithmic.com/ (690$ off).

Probably It could be possible to integrate allegorithmic using current plugin pipeline.


Sure, if you want to pay thousands to ten thousands per title which the Substance engine costs, you can naturally do that :)
But that really defeats the point
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby michax » 05 Mar 2012, 19:02

Code: Select all
Sure, if you want to pay thousands to ten thousands

Sure, why not! One thousand here .. one thousand there.

I didn't notice that Substance middleware is sold on pert title basis with custom licensing. Not good. I wonder how stonetrip planed to implement substance. Custom solution or Air/Redux middleware.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 05 Mar 2012, 19:09

michax wrote:
Code: Select all
Sure, if you want to pay thousands to ten thousands

Sure, why not! One thousand here .. one thousand there.

I didn't notice that Substance middleware is sold on pert title basis with custom licensing. Not good. I wonder how stonetrip planed to implement substance. Custom solution or Air/Redux middleware.


No, hard integration into the engine like Unity did it which is likely sponsored by Allegorithmic so they can better sell substances and the tools :)

Redux was never on the plate anyway, only support for Substances which isn't the same thing.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby ungana » 05 Mar 2012, 19:21

I would also like to chime in on this.

People can say what they want about basing your project decisions off another company; however we all have our reasons for making those decisions. The fact is the developer wiki has stated for quite some time that 2.0 was to be released before GDC. Our team decided to take advantage of the generous winter promotion and decided for now we would learn about ShiVa and make plans to start production around GDC. We are all on Macs, and while ShiVa does work surprisingly well in a virtual environment; it is far from an optimal experience.

I am not one to normally take part in forums, but this seems to be the only place I have seen this company interact with there customers (although they seem to ignore this topic). My hope is if maybe we all make enough noise they will pay attention.

Having come from a few years of using Unity I thought we might give this company a chance. I see a lot here I like; however the serious lack of real communication is very worrisome. One of us the other day found in an article a reference to the ShiVa "VP of Communication", and we all laughed. Seriously; what does this guy do? Sure as heck doesn't seem to communicate. At least not to his community / customers.

I truly hate writing posts like this, however these guys need to start communicating. I see the biggest draw to tools such as Unity are things like http://answers.unity3d.com/ and their regular forums. Try typing things about game development on youtube.com and you will see countless people using Unity. This isn't because Unity is lightyears ahead of anything else out there. It's because their are resources coming from the company making the tool to help people learn, and they interact with their community. They are also constantly teasing (and showing) upcoming features to keep people enticed, and eager to use their tools. Here you have people begging for information about promised tools, in need of resources, and are confronted with a company that seem just fine with ignoring them.

I was very excited about this product when we bought it. However we are very close to jumping back to Unity. With their Free iOS and Android offer they are offering today, our decision may have just got a lot easier.

Pull it together guys. I want to see you guys to well. Turning your customers (and potential customers) away will not help. People shouldn't have to beg you for information. You don't have to show all your cards, but right now you don't appear to have any.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby Benton » 05 Mar 2012, 19:55

Thank you for that post, that is exactly how I feel.

P.S. Unity is giving iOS and Android for FREE?! Is this why the Unity store is down?
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby yakkan » 05 Mar 2012, 20:05

@ungana

My thoughts exactly, well said.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby ungana » 05 Mar 2012, 20:08

Benton wrote:Thank you for that post, that is exactly how I feel.

P.S. Unity is giving iOS and Android for FREE?! Is this why the Unity store is down?


Yes. For the Basic (No Shadows, etc) versions.
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