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Shiva 2.0 open discussion

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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby neilb » 06 Mar 2012, 11:51

I think there's three possible reasons they've not responded:

1) They're all at GDC partying and getting drunk
2) They're all working their guts out to surprise us with 2.0 out before GDC finishes.
3) They haven't seen the thread. Wouldn't be the first time... :lol:
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby stevz » 06 Mar 2012, 12:35

neilb wrote:I think there's three possible reasons they've not responded:

1) They're all at GDC partying and getting drunk
2) They're all working their guts out to surprise us with 2.0 out before GDC finishes.
3) They haven't seen the thread. Wouldn't be the first time... :lol:


I hope it's the first one :mrgreen:
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby radek_ne » 06 Mar 2012, 12:54

redmotion wrote:
Unity in the Basic version is very limited


Don't get me wrong, I'm going to be using Shiva for a while yet. But my next long-term project may be using AR and Stonetrip don't seem bothered about creating an mobile AR plugin for Shiva. If Unity is free for a month, then I'll have an AR plugin and the ability to publish a 3d AR game to Android/iOS for nothing. Can't ignore that.



Of course I agree with you completely :) You never know which tool is better to perform a specific project. I just bought a Unity3D 3.5 Basic + IOS + Android for $ 0 :)
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby varnado » 06 Mar 2012, 13:21

radek_ne wrote:Of course I agree with you completely :) You never know which tool is better to perform a specific project. I just bought a Unity3D 3.5 Basic + IOS + Android for $ 0 :)


Still not as good as shiva, cause for all features you still need to pay around $5000! while Shiva basic edition covers almost 100% of unity premium features and even more for 400$
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 06 Mar 2012, 13:26

varnado wrote:Shiva supports more platforms than any other engine with similar price. I can not wait for v2.0 features, exciting times :D


Yes it does and its a bad thing if the engine wants to have a future as a team of 9 persons where definitely not all are engineers can't support such a spread and with the license fee thats never gonna get better.

Unity Technologies has 60 engineers and even they struggle constantly to get the stuff out in time, finished and stable.

The best for Stonetrip would be to get 'swallowed' by Marmelade as marmelade offers most of Shivas platforms too and has the financial backing etc to allow Shiva to grow in a focused and better supported way than the current joke license fees and 'spreading thinner than spider silk' approach does - I've nothing against the license fees as such but against the fact that they don't pay reasonable staff sizes to support the 'all out' platform strategy stonetrip is burying itself in. I've see what happens when you do that, spread your efforts further than your staff size can handle it reasonably and GarageGames had to pay seriously for it.
At the time Stonetrip does not even have enough staff to have 1 dedicated person per platform they support, not even if every single person was an engineer and for Win, OSX, Web, iOS and Android you realistically need 1-2 engineers, not 0 to 0.2, + 5-10 for the engine and editor core to handle such wide spread needs and features in a reasonable and performant way that allows your users to use it. Right now thats likely a -10 in Engineering Staff size vs desired platform support.

Out of my view Stonetrip should reformulate their target, focus exclusively on Marmelade and land a deal with them, get Win and OSX editors out ( Linux is a minority with a non-standardized UI layer, causing more work than win + osx together, so hard to justify if you lack staff to do the other stuff already) and build upon this single consistent platform.
That would reduce their overhead for multiplatform support and give them a technology where someone else handles the low level crossplatform nature under the hood to focus on the the game engine side again which is what they actually are here for :)
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby varnado » 06 Mar 2012, 13:42

dreamora wrote:
varnado wrote:Shiva supports more platforms than any other engine with similar price. I can not wait for v2.0 features, exciting times :D


Yes it does and its a bad thing if the engine wants to have a future as a team of 9 persons where definitely not all are engineers can't support such a spread and with the license fee thats never gonna get better.

Unity Technologies has 60 engineers and even they struggle constantly to get the stuff out in time, finished and stable.

The best for Stonetrip would be to get 'swallowed' by Marmelade as marmelade offers most of Shivas platforms too and has the financial backing etc to allow Shiva to grow in a focused and better supported way than the current joke license fees and 'spreading thinner than spider silk' approach does - I've nothing against the license fees as such but against the fact that they don't pay reasonable staff sizes to support the 'all out' platform strategy stonetrip is burying itself in. I've see what happens when you do that, spread your efforts further than your staff size can handle it reasonably and GarageGames had to pay seriously for it.
At the time Stonetrip does not even have enough staff to have 1 dedicated person per platform they support, not even if every single person was an engineer and for Win, OSX, Web, iOS and Android you realistically need 1-2 engineers, not 0 to 0.2


I think you are mistaken programmers with supermarket staff, 3 capable programmers can achieve what 30 can not at the same time but to some extent I agree with you that Stonetrip need more staff. Perhaps volunteers from this forum can help adding more content to the wiki etc...
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 06 Mar 2012, 13:53

I don't think you understand the problem if you think that 3 can do what 30 can do unless the 30 are bloody fresh Bsc with 0 experience.

3 man years are simply just that, the work 3 man can do in a year.
You can't solve problems that require 25-40 man years of effort, like getting Shiva up to date, finally getting Shiva 2 out, solving all the problems on usability, scripting limitations, shader limitations etc and getting all the platforms properly supported, opted and kept up to date with 3 man, not even if they would work 12h a day, 365d a year.

You can take the fact that Shiva 2 was meant to be release 15 months ago when we do not even have a first beta yet as a good sign for this point (Unity 3 was for more than 6 months in closed beta with the beta tester groups and that for Windows, OSX, Webplayer and iOS only!) but if you go through the boards you will see many more cases where the lack of enough staff just shows in a too painful way.

Stonetrip has a fundamental problem here to solve, one that was floating around for a long time and thats that they either have to stop adding new platforms and kick anything thats not a focus platform where they can grow and exist in reasonably, which makes sense to support or that they need change the licensing to make enough money to grow by themself without investor funding and selling out their soul.


Like others I've invested into Shiva back when Shiva 2 was meant to come in a few weeks back in 2010 to learn it, to have a new option in the future and its not too funny to see how new useless platforms get added one after the other (webos, rim, marmelade, now flash and likely nacl) when the core problems don't get touched at all and thats that the editor and scripting are not remotely usable for real business usage on real scale projects beyond some 1-2 month 1-2 person project for mobiles and alike.
There was so far one larger project done with shiva, on the PSP, and even that is barely more complex than simple iOS titles, but thats it.
Last edited by dreamora on 06 Mar 2012, 14:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby BaTo » 06 Mar 2012, 14:04

ShiVa 3D is nothing but a tool...like UDK or Unity 3D. What you build with it is absolutely 99% on you guys. :)
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby radek_ne » 06 Mar 2012, 14:13

varnado wrote:Still not as good as shiva, cause for all features you still need to pay around $5000! while Shiva basic edition covers almost 100% of unity premium features and even more for 400$


Exactly. I've just tested Unity3D Basic and reading specs. In this version of Unity is useless (for me).
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby pataya » 06 Mar 2012, 14:17

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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby stevz » 06 Mar 2012, 14:18

dreamora wrote:I don't think you understand the problem if you think that 3 can do what 30 can do unless the 30 are bloody fresh Bsc with 0 experience.

3 man years are simply just that, the work 3 man can do in a year.
You can't solve problems that require 25-40 man years of effort, like getting Shiva up to date, finally getting Shiva 2 out, solving all the problems on usability, scripting limitations, shader limitations etc and getting all the platforms properly supported, opted and kept up to date with 3 man, not even if they would work 12h a day, 365d a year.

You can take the fact that Shiva 2 was meant to be release 15 months ago when we do not even have a first beta yet as a good sign for this point (Unity 3 was for more than 6 months in closed beta with the beta tester groups and that for Windows, OSX, Webplayer and iOS only!) but if you go through the boards you will see many more cases where the lack of enough staff just shows in a too painful way.

Stonetrip has a fundamental problem here to solve, one that was floating around for a long time and thats that they either have to stop adding new platforms and kick anything thats not a focus platform where they can grow and exist in reasonably, which makes sense to support or that they need change the licensing to make enough money to grow by themself without investor funding and selling out their soul.


Like others I've invested into Shiva back when Shiva 2 was meant to come in a few weeks back in 2010 to learn it, to have a new option in the future and its not too funny to see how new useless platforms get added one after the other (webos, rim, marmelade, now flash and likely nacl) when the core problems don't get touched at all and thats that the editor and scripting are not remotely usable for real business usage on real scale projects beyond some 1-2 month 1-2 person project for mobiles and alike.
There was so far one larger project done with shiva, on the PSP, and even that is barely more complex than simple iOS titles, but thats it.


But I think they're not stupid, if they focus in mobile platforms and small projects is because of something: they represent at least the 90% of the Shiva customers, so they take more benefit from it. If you double the development team, it would probably double the price of the software, so that could make them lose all those basic-edition-one-person-teams (like me) that choose Shiva because of the relation between quality and price.

But I understand why you're angry about this, they didn't show that in their marketing and roadmap, but this is another thing.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby dreamora » 06 Mar 2012, 15:08

I don't think they are stupid, if I would I wouldn't be here nor write on the board.
I'm not sure what kind of thoughts and plan they have, as nothing is shared in the sense of a roadmap and anything similar that was shared was missed with a few exceptions.

What though is pretty clear is that Quality over Quantity is definitely not on the top 3 positions of the priority list. The above linked thread is one of these examples where 'less but well working' would be significantly better
Last edited by dreamora on 06 Mar 2012, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby makkar » 06 Mar 2012, 15:49

BaTo wrote:What you build with it is absolutely 99% on you guys. :)


Would be nice if this was true. Then we wouldn't need 2.0 and any next versions. :)

Take Augmented Reality for example. Can you do it with your own 99%? Sure, if you have the needed education and professional background, let alone for financial investment if you don't already have a commission for an AR poject. If that was so easy, there would be dozens of Shiva plugins around.

Would you have started working on it knowing that Augmented Reality plugins were told a year ago to be available soon in the Asset Store, in 1 or two months? Stonetrip was working on these AR plugins that time and the online documentation still has many of the API commands. Just do a search there using "artoolkit". This has been forgotten along with Substance.

When this was announced, I did not suppose that it is going to take a year or two (if ever) to have access to these tools ( purchase them if needed) to start utilizing them. One or two months were specifically given by Stonetrip until getting them published, but a year is not anywhere soon. I made some preparation steps to get business around AR with Shiva and even not long ago some interested clients found me, but when they got serious, I could just tell them: soon.

There went my earnings I could have had in my pocket. There went Stonetrip's earnings from selling their plugin.

Right, you can make AR with your 99%, after all. But there are other features that are locked, just read around.

About pricing:
I always thought that there is an unreasonably large gap between the pricing of the Basic and the Advanced version compared to each other. The extra features I use from the Advanced version are convenient, but do not justify for me the 10x price. Yes it is now more balanced that the Basic's price has doubled, it is now just 5x difference. I wouldn't compare Shiva's price to other engines this time.

About upgrading to 2.0:
Current users, let's put it this way, have already paid for the features included in 1.x. When they upgrade to 2.0, they will buy the new featuers in 2.0 AND all the later new features that will be developed along 2.x. ( If license policy will not change). So paying for 2.0 probably means paying for 10-30% of all the coming features. This is why it is important to have a clear roadmap that can be trusted, to see if Shiva is heading in the direction one plans to go.

To see most of what that 70-90% will bring. Both users and Stonetrip have to accept, not any engine in the world can please everyone. That's fine again, but users need information that affects their business, for well-grounded decisions.

Roadmap:
Shiva hasn't been the company that brought groundbraking technical novelties into the 3D engine world, except targeting the largest span of platforms. I think Shiva has been a follower, and that is very fine. But then what would justify to keep the roadmap secret if it would list features other engines already have implemented or have them on their public roadmap?

Edit: I am not arguing against Shiva. I plan to use it further for what it is capable, but if I had been told that these AR plugins were not going to be published for so long, I could have considered going another route to ensure proper software background.
Last edited by makkar on 06 Mar 2012, 18:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby varnado » 06 Mar 2012, 16:20

For AR I think you can use camera feed and pixelmaps + related math.

I just checked Unity features on their license comparison page and saw this! "Dark Skin: Stylish dark toned skin to match the skins of professional tools like Max, Maya, and CS5." is that even a feature ? :lol: that is only available in their pro edition haha...
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Re: Shiva 2.0 open discussion

Postby Benton » 06 Mar 2012, 18:48

I would rather them tell us the planned features etc. and say "wait 6 months" then keep us in the dark for three months and then give us 2.0. Because 2.0 is beginning to look a lot like vaporware...
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