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So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby michax » 17 Aug 2012, 20:01

I can agree with worring lack of information on upcoming products/services. But i'm happy with continous upgrades to UAT and i'm enjoying using 1.9.1 as it is.

And I must say that there was a little misleading information about 2.0 being shown in Q1-Q2. But those were unoficial ones (but shown on stonetrip.com). Otherwise i wasn't expecting 2.0 to early and was happy with 1.9.1 upgrades during year.

Also I can understand codinghero dissatisfaction. Especialy if someone paid additional money to get 2.0 and already had 1.9.*.
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby Shaderman » 17 Aug 2012, 20:13

michax wrote:Also I can understand codinghero dissatisfaction. Especialy if someone paid additional money to get 2.0 and already had 1.9.*.

Agreed, I didn't think about this point of view when I wrote my previous post :?
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby Idmpc » 18 Aug 2012, 03:55

codinghero wrote:By the way, "is it time again for yet another shiva 2.0 hate thread? .... fine..." Really professional.


I agree with codinghero on this one. Every company should learn how to handle unsatisfied customers in a more polite way.

broozar wrote:stonetrip does not do false advertising. (...) When you go to the STORE page, it clearly states what you get: a ShiVa 1.9.x license with the following text: "EACH NEW LICENCE INCLUDES AN UPGRADE TO SHIVA 2.0". And you WILL get the 2.0 license, no doubt about that.


Well... if you do go to the store page, it also clearly states "release early 2012".

Today, I am a ShiVa Editor Basic customer. However, before buying the license, I was studying and learning how to use ShiVa, because I truly liked the fact that it can export your projects to a whole lot of platforms. However, back then I was reading that the upgrade to 2.0 would not be free, so I decided to wait until 2.0 was released to buy a license. The reason I do have a license today is because of this winter promotion, which gave me the 1.9.x license while saying that I can upgrade to 2.0 for free, when it's released.

I do feel a little disappointed with the fact that 2.0 is being pushed further away, but only because I have so much expectation of it. However, I would be truly disappointed, just like codinghero is, if I had pre-ordered the thing one year ago, just to see it being delayed with no official word on it (besides "yeah, we're working on it). I know I'd be disappointed because it reminds me of when Half Life 2 was delayed a million times (and I had spent loads of Money on an ATI video card which gave me a voucher for downloading half life 2 when it was released).

I know I'd be really happy if I heard official word like "Yeah guys, sorry we're pushing 2.0 further away, but that's only happening because we're focusing so much on writing amazing documentation for it." If you, stonetrip, say something like this, then you can take as long as you want and I'll be a happy waiting customer. (Seriously, I want better documentation).
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby broozar » 18 Aug 2012, 09:43

Idmpc wrote:I know I'd be disappointed because it reminds me of when Half Life 2 was delayed a million times (and I had spent loads of Money on an ATI video card which gave me a voucher for downloading half life 2 when it was released).


HL2 is a great point. remember when the WIP version leaked onto the internet, and everybody was so incredibly disappointed. but, some years later, it was named the greatest game of the decade.

Idmpc wrote:if I had pre-ordered the thing one year ago, just to see it being delayed with no official word on it


good point for codinghero. again, we never sold 2.0 licenses. we never accepted preorders. we sold the current editor with an upgrade. an editor you received. with an upgrade that will come. if you interpreted that any differently, we are sorry. that is all i can say. look at the other replies in this thread. everybody else seems to know what they have purchased.

Idmpc wrote:(Seriously, I want better documentation).


this has been one of the major complaints about shiva in the past, but i don't agree that this is still the case. Seriously i don't know what you want. There is samples for almost any kind of game or situation you might encounter. There is the online api docs which explain almost every function, this was previously incomplete, but has been improved greatly over the last few months, there are in fact only a handfull of functions that are not fully explained. The wiki is full of great books and blog entries, hours and hours of video tutorials, step by step guides and so on. Free Forum and email support is there if you can't find the things you are looking for.

Every tool has a learning curve. The tool is there, the docs are there, the samples are too. Now, if you are searching for a course "3d game creation basics" or "lua programming 101", you won't find it, that is true.

PS:

codinghero wrote:If you had bothered to read posts fully


rest assured, i did. and i care about the customers, especially those that are not satisfied. but my options are limited. i cannot give you 2.0, because it is not ready. i cannot give you updates, because we decided against it in the team. this is the third or fourth shiva 2.0 thread where you take an active part in, essentially bashing stonetrip as a company. do you think this will make the next editor version appear any faster? what are you trying to achieve here? this is no discussion, there are no arguments, there is no middle ground, no compromise to reach. we can see you are angry, and all we can do is apologize.

PPS: Excuse my sloppy opening in the second post. sometimes, it is hard not to feel personally attacked by those threads/remarks.
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby Shando69 » 18 Aug 2012, 10:59

Hi All,

Just thought I'd put in my 2c :)

I'm in no rush for 2.0, BUT when I heard that there would be frequent Blog Posts/Updates I thought that Stonetrip had decided to communicate more (a good thing!). However, IMHO I don't believe that they have managed to do what they said they would (a bad thing!).

You only need to look at a company like Game Creators. They issue regular updates (through their Newsletter), and they (well Lee Bamber at least) always seem to be in the news. Now I'm not saying that Dark Basic is anywhere near as good as Shiva, BUT at least what TGC are doing keeps reminding me that I have a copy of it 8)

All Stonetrip need to do is actually keep their Users informed about what they're up to, and let us know if there are likely to be delays (otherwise these 2.0 threads will keep appearing at regular intervals).

Broozar - Please don't take any of this personally, it was happening waaaaayyyyyyyy before you became the official spokesperson.

Regards

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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby DoctorPepper » 18 Aug 2012, 12:48

broozar wrote:this has been one of the major complaints about shiva in the past, but i don't agree that this is still the case. Seriously i don't know what you want. There is samples for almost any kind of game or situation you might encounter.


I still stink that documentation is very limited. And there might be info on the most functions, but its all over the forum, and very hard to find.
When going to the wiki, half of shiva's examples were never explained. I guess we could just read the code and figure some scene and object setting by trial and error, but it would be nice to have the thought process of the designer who wrote the code.
Examples: Ragdoll, MeshMorph, Wave, screen shockwave etc.

I also think that you should allow for the community to instantly post any kind of text to the Documentation section, for each function. There, everyone could have an option to up or downvote the comments, or mark as spam. People who abuse the system, get restricted from posting. Only allow posting from 50 forum entries, or if you own at least a basic licence.
Just an other week, i was writing a code that would transform a vector into an angle, and there are like 10 different angle function, each of them doing a very poor job at explaining why you would use one over an other.
Imagine if someone have already written a comment, explaining how, where and when he used that function. And someone who explained what possible issues might arise, highlighting limitations. Like pitch/roll which inverts values after a certain angle.
I feel like community can easily sort it out, directly inside documentation, without a need to make a forum post.
You can post comments now, but they have to be approved, reworked into description etc seems like a drag
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby broozar » 18 Aug 2012, 19:08

yes, the camera.* API is one of the very few that is currently unfinished.

about the whole crowd documentation thing:

the WIKI was open until a few weeks ago. Rarely did anyone post, and in the last weeks of the "open door policy", i had to delete close to 100 bots a day. since there is no crowd banning, you had to eliminate every bot individually. so i spent literally hours on cleaning up the mess. it's just not worth it.

The samples explaining thing: most of the samples are well commented and can be easily reverse engineered since most of them focus on just one feature. stonetrip at that time saw no need to write extra docs for them.
when i noticed that people started asking questions about those samples, i started to write docs to them when i was still a user, so basically years ago. nobody chimed in. the wiki is supposed to be a community effort. now, it has become some sort of second documentation hub where i post the latest user tutorials (mostly nav's/gamescorpion - huge thanks dude, you are one of the few holding the "community" part of the wiki up) or code snippets from the forum.

PS: i would love to see your vector samples and put them up. drop me a line.
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby DoctorPepper » 18 Aug 2012, 20:00

Wel, that why i said said that only people with n amount of posts or a licence could post, its easier to restrict accounts.
Ive also never seen user posts, and when tryed to post something myself, they never apeard (maybe some errors on my side).
Also, letting us know that we should post, and maybe give some badges or an experience counter would do a lot. I do realize that its a lot of work, though, not a key feature anyway.

About those vectors, its a simple cos(alpha) = Vx/||V|| . And then a small conversion to shiva's angle that starts at 90 instead of 0 plus negative angle. Then i could use object.rotate(..) . I am sure that there is a function for that already with 1 line, but i was a bit confused when reading through documentation, just seemed easier to write it out without testing shiva's.
Whats the difference between rotate and setRotation?
RotateTo is saying that its rotating with a specified angle, and 2 lines below its suddenly "The center point of the rotation X coordinate" What does it even mean? Is it target coordinate or rotation angle? rlly confuses me, rotation coordinate is an unknown definition for me.
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby dlannan » 26 Aug 2012, 13:02

Wow. Now, this is all very reminiscent from when I last visited. I have not visited Shiva3D forums for a good 3 months since moving onto building my own cross platform Lua based system and to find 2.0 still not out and more disgruntled customers, very disappointing.

As someone who has to deal with Simulator customers on a daily basis I am utterly surprised at some of the responses in this thread from broozar. Are you a StoneTrip representative? If so, you have failed very badly in customer service. You should read some top tips I think and maybe try again with your customers - you are only doing a disservice to your company and likely scaring away potential customers with your reactive attitude to someone whom has a _valid_ complaint. Regardless of your own opinions customer service should always attempt to resolve valid complaints. You are even arguing that the customer's interpretation could be misconstrued - who's fault is that? If you don't clearly define some text then you should take responsibility and stand up and apologize and try to make reparations. You do not say we meant X, and too bad if you think Y.

I interpreted the statement that it was intended for customers to purchase based on soon to be released upgrades (It was a Winter sale?) and you have failed to meet some of the stated intentions. In any case, you have badly managed your customers and sullied your brand. Imho, not very sensible to chastise customers for what is clearly - not their fault, and that they quite rightly have reason to be frustrated, despondent, annoyed, etc.

Heres some easy reading on the subject matter:
http://www.inc.com/john-treace/how-to-handle-customer-employee-complaints.html
http://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/12-customer-dos-donts.html?nav=next
http://www.inc.com/jon-gelberg/8-customer-service-donts-united-airlines.html
Theres tuns more.. but well worth reading and taking note.

On the actual delay subject, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. Going back to one of my original posts on the matter, I thought stonetrip surely would be cash flush enough to throw some extra people at the problem of delays and get 2.0 out the door asap. Its worth remembering people will not chastise you for 2.0 bugs, we all know not everything works perfectly in the software world especially for major releases.

Additionally I'm surprised you haven't cut some features to allow for an earlier release - this is how we often mitigate risk. We talk to the customers, find their highest priority features and ones they aren't so keen on and then work with them to get an "as soon as" release that will move them forward. Try doing something like this here? It wouldn't be hard. Get a poll on features you know are going in, get a response from your audience - you might find things you think important are not, thus can be delayed as updates! I know my main concerns for Shiva 2.0 are NOT editor, but things like:
- access to OpenGLES shader pipe
- ability to load Lua5.1 Modules
- extension building made easier (relates to above)
- more general access to materials and scene elements in script.
I'm sure if you gave your customers a voice, you might actually find an easier way to get to a goal everyone is happy with. Customer involvement can bring you massive benefits. Treating it as an "us and them" mentality is sure to lose customers and brand value.

I hope this helps. Good luck with the update, I do hope Shiva3D 2.0 does get to its release soon because I fear your customer market has dwindled and lost support (the forums reflect this substantially) when it shouldn't need to.

Oh, and as to using Shiva, I have left it due my requirements and I have my own LuaJIT cross platform OpenGLES system almost ready. :) .. Its currently got some nice stuff in it, like scalable vector UI, OpenAL support, deferred rendering support, and various other nice things (web deployable execution modules etc :) ). Its been fun making it.. never know.. when 2.0 comes out I might not need it :)

Sorry for the long winded rant.. dont visit often anymore though. Good luck StoneTrip, Im a Lua coder from way back(2001), and I love all things Lua, and wish them all the best with it.

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby lcocea » 26 Aug 2012, 17:18

I am relatively new around here and I don't know much about this apparent issue and ongoing discussion. I think $200 is an excellent price for this great software and for an individual user. If I ran a company I couldn't afford to provide tech support for this price. ShiVa looks so easy to use on the surface and yet I suspect it's incredibly complex under the hood. The software updates are really in the Authoring Tool, that's what makes it compatible with the current devices on the market. By the time I am done learning ShiVa 1.9 I guess version 3.0 will be out. ;)
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby DoctorPepper » 26 Aug 2012, 19:45

Not unless you are willing to use shiva when when everyone has flying cars and human headquarters are stationed on the moon.
If we ever even see 2.0, itl be a blessing
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby codinghero » 27 Aug 2012, 06:10

DoctorPepper wrote:Not unless you are willing to use shiva when when everyone has flying cars and human headquarters are stationed on the moon.
If we ever even see 2.0, itl be a blessing

Hahahahahahahahaha! Ain't that the truth. 10:1 Shiva 2.0 doesn't release in 2013 either. If they're lucky there might still be one or two developers left using it.
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby flim » 27 Aug 2012, 07:43

dlannan wrote:I have not visited Shiva3D forums for a good 3 months since moving onto building my own cross platform Lua based system and to find 2.0 still not out and more disgruntled customers, very disappointing.
.
.
Oh, and as to using Shiva, I have left it due my requirements and I have my own LuaJIT cross platform OpenGLES system almost ready. :) .. Its currently got some nice stuff in it, like scalable vector UI, OpenAL support, deferred rendering support, and various other nice things (web deployable execution modules etc :) ). Its been fun making it.. never know.. when 2.0 comes out I might not need it :)


Wow, you only need 3 months to build your own cross platform engine! :shock:
Do you have development blog for share?
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby Selzier » 27 Aug 2012, 14:24

codinghero wrote:Hahahahahahahahaha! Ain't that the truth. 10:1 Shiva 2.0 doesn't release in 2013 either. If they're lucky there might still be one or two developers left using it.


This thread reminds me of Team Fortress 2 from Valve Software. TF2 development started in 1998 and within a few years everyone called it vaporware and laughed at Valve because it had not been released.

Dedicated to making a good product and a fun game (despite everyone's negativity) Valve pushed on with TF2, finally releasing it in 2007 after 10 years of development.

Team Fortress 2 then received Game of the Year among other awards, and is now the most played F2P First Person Shooter in the world.

Why did it take Valve so long? Well during that time Valve happened to release a product you might have heard of called ... Steam ?
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Re: So... Looks Like 2.0 Is Dead

Postby codinghero » 27 Aug 2012, 15:23

Selzier wrote:This thread reminds me of Team Fortress 2 from Valve Software. TF2 development started in 1998 and within a few years everyone called it vaporware and laughed at Valve because it had not been released.

Dedicated to making a good product and a fun game (despite everyone's negativity) Valve pushed on with TF2, finally releasing it in 2007 after 10 years of development.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! That's even funnier! Yeah, maybe we'll get a return on our investment by the end of 2019. :lol:
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