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2-license Shiva - for Parallels and native Windows

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2-license Shiva - for Parallels and native Windows

Postby mal_CanDo » 22 Jun 2009, 17:58

It would be great if the same license allowed for Shiva to run under both Parallels and natively on the same computer.

Currently if you have it running under one ( eg Parallels, for rapid iPhone dev and deployment on the same Mac ) and then want to run it natively under Boot Camp, you have to transfer the license back and forth.

If the license could be extended to allow this setup ( which will probably become a lot more popular as Shiva 1.x becomes more prevelant ) then it could be a useful feature to add.

Mal
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Re:2-license Shiva - for Parallels and native Windows

Postby NiCoX » 22 Jun 2009, 19:18

Hi Mal,

Yes we are thinking of something like that for future versions...

:)
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Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby grimlog » 22 Jun 2009, 23:54

Hi Nicox, didn't know where else to put this:

Here is quote from JOachim ANte:

"Going beyond the surface I think there are some fairly obvious and big glaring issues with shiva.

1. No previewing like the iPhone Remote, combined with a complicated publishing process that involves moving files manually and doing several manual steps to upload to the iPhone doesn't seem like a workflow usable in a real production environment

2. Performance wise using an interpreted language like lua is quite frankly suicide on a device like the iPhone. Unity's AOT compiled scripting is around 10-20x faster than an interpreted language like LUA. (what's up with that? any science to justify his claim?)

3. I doubt that they have the resources to optimize the graphics rendering as much as we did with Unity iPhone. We have 2 engineers working fulltime on optimizing Unity iPhone. Down to writing ASM code for the ARM vector unit to accelerate graphics rendering. Looking at how they are staffed they have zero people who are purely dedicated to optimizing for the iPhone. (from what I have read about stonetrip, isn't the company founded in telecommuncations development for mobile devices to begin with? Is he reaching for issues, maybe speaking misnomers?)

4. I think it's easily reflected in that no one has published iPhone games with complex game code using shiva. Or really any kind of high quality content.

There is more than that, but those seem to be the big ticket show stopper items.
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Joachim Ante"

What would be the response to this, it seems very nervous on his part. Is there any truth to his claims? Some of it doesn't seems reasonable except to bash the competition by clearly insulting you guys. This kind of chatter could be devasting to anyone making informed jdgements about your product, not me, but you must admit this is really bad.:(
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby Strokey44 » 23 Jun 2009, 01:36

Dude sounds kind of like a prick.
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby dpharaoh » 23 Jun 2009, 01:50

He doesn't know what he's talking about. I've published two games on the iPhone platform using Shiva.

CastleGuard2 is an action RPG with multiple levels, avatar customization, lots of special effects, melee and missile combat, multiple AI profiles, persistence, dialog, NPC interaction.

I think that beats the complexity of Zombieville...

Shiva rocks.
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby r10k » 23 Jun 2009, 02:03

I recall reading on the Unity forums (not long ago) that someone had tested Shiva on the Iphone and found it was faster than Unity. Of course, that was one test, but... still. It's pretty obvious Shiva isn't slow as all heck.
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Re:2-license Shiva - for Parallels and native Windows

Postby dtr1au » 23 Jun 2009, 02:44

Sounds like a douch-bag, but who am I to judge?

Anyway, i think the only comment provided with any kind of evidence as backing is point 1 where he mentions the automatic publishing stuff and automatic preview on the device... HOWEVER... its just silly to say "doesn't seem like a workflow usable in a real production environment", bahh!! it takes me 30 seconds to manually put the app onto my iphone for testing. Besides, the scene editor is a pritty good representation for development anyway, i've found it does everything i need initially, then i put onto my iphone to fine tune.

All other comments are have not justification..

2. Well lets see a performance demo between the 2, i doubt there will be much difference. Actually, if I had the money i would buy a unity license just to test this. Hey, unity can give me one and I will spend my own time to create a benchmark between the 2, sounds good to me.

3. What would they know about stonetrip resources, unless they have a spy... i doubt it. Everyone here see's the frequency of updates, we know that LOTS of time and resources get spent on the iphone side.

4. There are many games, and as dpharaoh has said, castleguard2 is a good example, and is complex enough to say that comment is not true. And i could be wrong, but this was created only by dpharoah, a 1 man team. Imagine what is possible with a team of 3-4, much more. My current project is a hack&slash RPG, and I already have a complex system working. Complex systems = reasonably easy to work with in shiva.

"Big ticket show stoppers" - hahaha, makes me laugh. Sounds like a comment from a sales person doesn't it. Can't they just say "Shiva looks like a good product, but some features we feel make unity unique is ....... and we cannot comment on how shiva handles these as we do not know their product well enough".. Comments like that will be better recieved and your potential customers wont think your a prick.

Anyway, that's my 2cents.
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Re:2-license Shiva - for Parallels and native Windows

Postby grimlog » 23 Jun 2009, 03:43

Yeah, what a freaking tool! He just blows off his trap, sounds to me from everything I have studied in Shiva, that what he is saying is completely unfounded. I have looked in the Shiva forums and cannot find any of the devs making shit up about unity and taking such a car salesman like stance, dtr1au, you hit the nail on the head.

He is trying to describe himself as an expert on Shiva and it appears that he must have first hand knowledge of the way Shiva is built and how it works. The funny thing is that he is not saying anything about javascript being interpreted, it is also. Every engine I have looked at uses a scripting interpreted language to access the engine.

I just thought you guys woould find his ranting pretty offensive, funny, moreover, than anything else. I thought it would be good to rile up the base. i have been trolling that forum and they really have sharp opinions aboout anything not UNITY, what a funny idea to name your engine UNITY but to preach SINGULARITY. Now there are some there that have an open mind, but for the most part, I have been met with such unfounded comments and lies, some guys simply make shit up.

I would like to hear NiCox's or one of the devs here respond to that blowhard Joachim Ante, didn't Joachm Phoenix have such a display on Letterman recently?
8)

LET"S RALLY THE TROOPS!!!!
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby grimlog » 23 Jun 2009, 03:50

Yeah pharoah, nice game man. It seems the update really made everyone happy.
Zombieville isn't complex at all. It is just card like planes with artwork used with alpha channels and overlay animations, the background is static, it is just fun to blow crap up. What I have been saying is that if you make people horny for your game, they will buy and buy it a lot!

How are you sales if you don't mind me asking. Hope it is rolling you in $$$.B)
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby MiguelHerrero » 23 Jun 2009, 06:56

I'm using Shiva, and I like it (and hate at the same time :P). But Zombieville looks more polished. It's 2D but it seems to use a 2D skeletal animation system. It just looks more polished. Also Castleguard is a bit choppy. Maybe Castleguard is more complex, but technically Zombieville seems better.

Also, the graphics look pretty sharp. With ShiVa I haven't achieved sharp 2D graphics, there's always some blur.

The scripted code in Unity seems to be compiled, at least that's what they say, I haven't been able to test it. I've got some Unity demos on my iPhone and they run pretty fast (they've got a ragdoll demo that runs at a very high fps) but it's not a big difference with Shiva, in my opinion.

Yep, the guy doesn't know anything about Shiva and he's just trying to sell his product. Shiva should be improved a lot (there are little bugs everywhere and the devs seem to add more features instead of fixing them), but it's really CHEAP.

Unity is probably better that Shiva but hell it's damn expensive. If both cost the same I would choose Unity hands down. But in the meantime, let's keep Shiva running :)
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby dpharaoh » 23 Jun 2009, 11:28

Miguel, I didn't say my game is BETTER than Zombieville, or more polished, I said it's much more complex codewise and scenewise. I like Zombieville quite a bit.
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby MiguelHerrero » 23 Jun 2009, 12:21

I mean, I haven't tried neither game so I can't say one is more complex than the other. I just say that it's hard to know if it's more or less complex without looking at the source code.

That said, your game is one of the more complex iPhone games made with Shiva, if not the most :D
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby Strokey44 » 23 Jun 2009, 21:17

God I love this community.:silly:
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby MiguelHerrero » 24 Jun 2009, 07:12

By the way, check out Graviton :P (100% ShiVa)

The main problem ShiVa has is the AIs, in terms of usability. Some teammates and myself have been coding in Shiva, and been used to the freedom given in other languages (even in standard LUA itself), the code in Shiva is quite restraining.

But the performance on the iPhone is quite impressive taking into account all the things that are being done here. I've been doing some tests with raw objective-c code and the iPhone seems more limited than I thought at first (yup, I'm using the ARM instruction set).
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Re:Unity CTO has something to say....

Postby r10k » 24 Jun 2009, 07:31

From your perspective, how is the code restraining?
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