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Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

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Re:Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby flim » 22 Feb 2010, 13:18

but lack of a JIT compiler the byte code still execute by the LUA interpreter.

Why not integrate Mono? It has multi-platform and multi-architecture (x86, x86-64, ARM, s390, PowerPC) and multi-language support.
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Re:Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby broozar » 22 Feb 2010, 13:43

if i had a guess, size, ease of use, and simplicity. and i seriously doubt that the few lines of lua code make your game crawl. after all, it's scripting the engine in lua, not executing a program entirely written in lua.
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Re:Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby flim » 01 Mar 2010, 04:07

Or maybe integrate V8 Javascript in ShiVa? It comes with JIT and support multi-platforms.

http://code.google.com/p/v8/

This is a very interesting summary, but it seems LuaJIT has the best code size/performance ratio.
http://gmarceau.qc.ca/blog/2009/05/speed-size-and-dependability-of.html
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Re:Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby RedKetchup » 01 Mar 2010, 16:34

It is a personnal opinion, but introducing multiple language in a engine like Unity dose, bring up just more questions by users and heavier doc. Like: what is the faster language, what is the easiest, there is so many treads on Unity forum on those questions. I believe the way StoneTrip present scripting is the easiest I saw so far. I move to shiVa because of the clarity of scripting API doc and the genius of the conception of the AIModels. It make a difference for me between a game that work and one that don't. I acheived in less than 2 months what took me 6 in Unity.
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Re:Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby bigkahuna » 01 Mar 2010, 18:08

Sorry, post removed...
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby jashan » 08 Oct 2010, 11:05

RedKetchup wrote:* StoneTrip is not making false representation (especially on ease of scripting) like unity dose. StoneTrip don't have negatve approach toward other engines they say pacific.


Is that still true? I noticed ShiVa first when the iPhone version came out and kind of liked it. However, recently ShiVa's doing some pretty loud marketing and some of the materials like Choosing The Right 3D Engine For You seem a little out of line to me.

I've never heard a bad word about another game engine from any of the UT-folks. Maybe from users but not from the company itself. So, while I certainly still hope that ShiVa will mature into a great engine I hope that the "marketing strategies" will return to "pacifistic" which is the approach UT has been following all along.

RedKetchup wrote:- Community: Shiva = friendly. Unity = You whish you don't have to ask question. The chat is so crowded, it is almost impossible to have a answer, since it is free.


A few years ago, when Unity was still comparatively small, the Unity forums were probably the greatest place to hang out you could think of. You'd ask a question and get a friendly answer in no time - frequently right from the Unity developers. They were very active on the forums when Unity was still small and created a really great place. They called this "shock and awe support" and it certainly worked great - at the small scale it had back then.

I haven't digged to deep into the ShiVa forums but I would hope they are now the same as the Unity forums were 3 years ago (and that's what I'm reading out of the comments comparing ShiVa and Unity). Question is how Stonetrip will scale with popularity. I hope they'll do a good job!

RedKetchup wrote:- Support. Shiva answer my emails (I have unlimited). Unity... I am still waiting for a answer.


See above. It's a matter of scale. How many users does Shiva currently have? Unity has 200,000+ users ... that's quite a massive amount and obviously makes keeping up with support a severe challenge.

RedKetchup wrote:- Physic engine, Shiva want to upgrade, Unity don't.


UT certainly *wanted* to upgrade ... in fact, all 3rd party libraries have been updated in Unity 3. They're usually doing this with major upgrades.

I guess many of the points mentioned (e.g. scripting editor issues, PhysX etc.) are already history just a few months later. However, the forums / support are something that's difficult with Unity ATM. On the other hand, many users also means lots of user generated tutorials ;-)
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby bigkahuna » 08 Oct 2010, 12:32

Hey Jashan,

Regarding the physics engine and Unity, with version 3.0 Unity has now updated the version of PhysX in their system and now supports cloth physics as well as a number of "under the hood" improvements. IMO the physics upgrade is the single best improvement that Unity 3.0 brings over 2.6.1.

FWIW I've decided I can't use Shiva for the simple reason that the physics engine is so limited.
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby r10k » 08 Oct 2010, 15:58

recently ShiVa's doing some pretty loud marketing and some of the materials like Choosing The Right 3D Engine For You


I wouldn't call that loud marketing.

I hope that the "marketing strategies" will return to "pacifistic" which is the approach UT has been following all along.


I don't know if they can afford to be completely pacifistic. UT has a stranglehold on the game dev industry at the moment. Every time game dev is mentioned, Unity is the only word people know. I often look like an idiot as that one annoying guy who always mentions Shiva exists. The UT guys might not bag other engines, but their marketing is quite aggressive.

I haven't digged to deep into the ShiVa forums but I would hope they are now the same as the Unity forums were 3 years ago (and that's what I'm reading out of the comments comparing ShiVa and Unity). Question is how Stonetrip will scale with popularity. I hope they'll do a good job!


That's an excellent point to bring up, and I hope the Stonetrip have plans in place to scale their [forum] support so it's as good then as it is now.

FWIW I've decided I can't use Shiva for the simple reason that the physics engine is so limited.


'Limited' is a funny word to use, as Unity's software PhysX support is limited in many ways as well. I'm confident Shiva will grow more capable in weaker areas over time (not that I think the physics support is bad- just for those who want all the candy in the word).
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby bigkahuna » 08 Oct 2010, 16:08

'Limited' is a funny word to use, as Unity's software PhysX support is limited in many ways as well.


True, no argument there. But for now, Unity is less limited than Shiva. ;)
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby r10k » 08 Oct 2010, 17:03

As far as physics go, sure. And, you should use whatever tool works.

However I think you'll return to Shiva for physics later on, because you, all the rest is the best :mrgreen:
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby michax » 17 Oct 2010, 07:02

I don't like comparison marketing too. It should be done by some user, not owners.

As for me. I like both Engines. But Shiva is my private winner because of price.
If i had unlimited resources for sure i would choose Unity :)
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby 8DashP » 19 Oct 2010, 11:11

Hi All, my first post here.

I'm currently wrestling with the dilemma of which product to pick - Unity or Shiva. I'm a solo developer of iOS applications (for the foreseeable future anyway) who needs to find the most economical but least restrictive product to develop iOS games & other applications. I was all ready to purchase Unity due to it's large knowledge base but at the 11th hour decided to hold off and evaluate Shiva a bit more, so am back to reading this thread.

The things that concern me about Shiva are 1) The lack of a large body of training material 2) The perceived lack of abilities in the Physics engine.

The things that concern me about Unity are 1) The price 2) The price 3) The number of "problem" posts on the support forum.

Shiva obviously comes up tops on the price, and as a struggling new developer, that's one of my main decision points, but no product is worth any amount if it can't do the job required. The current high price of the Australian dollar compared to the US dollar is pushing me to make a quick decision on whether to purchase Unity or not, as if it slumps again, I could be looking at a 10% - 20% increase on the price as of today. Of course the problem is, I'm only considering the $400 iOS version of Unity. If I later find that the limitations on the Basic version are too much, then I'm stuck looking at another $3,000 for the full version, which is way out of my league as a start-up.

I guess where I'm at is needing to do some hands on evaluation of both, but as I said, the AUS<->US exchange rate is pushing my decision, and time is my worst enemy. All of these comparisons are against the full feature set of both products. Does anyone have any experience with both for iOS development and can provide any comparison of how one may be better than the other?

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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby dreamora » 19 Oct 2010, 11:13

Can't offer much experience on the Shiva side yet, but I've been doing contract work fulltime with Unity and especially Unity iPhone since spring 09 so I can likely answer most questions on that side.
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby NiCoX » 19 Oct 2010, 11:55

Of course the problem is, I'm only considering the $400 iOS version of Unity.

Take care this version has, among many other limitations, a non customizable splash screen.

Won't say more as this could sound "non objective" ;)
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Re: Shiva vs Unity my positive comments (About Shiva)

Postby dreamora » 19 Oct 2010, 12:14

:)

The main things you lose with the $400 is build stripping (can or can not be of use, as depending on your code you can't strip anything anyway), you don't have render textures and I'm not fully sure if ogl es 2.0 can be used without iphone pro.
The thing where U3 iphone basic differs from iphone 1.7 is that with U3, all iphone licenses can bind native code plugins, be it pro or non pro, but in trade the non pro lost occlusion culling as U3 implements Umbra, normally a $30k / title technology, which is only available in Pro and iPhone Pro.

So if you do a 3D shooter or a 3rd person game with a rather low camera angle where you have a wide view, getting around Pro might become a very large problem.
if you do stuff with iso view or 2d games, then on the other hand the only feature you could potentially be missing is the stripping.
The major problem you will normally have to fight with unity is the price of .net and its engine: 10 - 18mb filesize with nothing in!

With shiva you don't have such restrictions even on the lower license but you trade it for the lack of editor expandability (unitys strong side, shiva out of my view feels like Win 3.1 vs Win7 when compared to Unity as I got used that much to the powerfull editors present there or present after I added them :)), the much more restricted functionality you have access to (large parts of .net frameworks + your own .net libraries vs the predefined untouchable functionality offered by shiva) and the out of my view annoying deploy at least at the moment involves you to use windows to develop on osx to deploy to iphone.
Also until 1.9 there is one major hold back at least for 2D in shiva and thats the fact that the counterpart to Unitys "Mesh" class isn't around yet, but very well required to do a 2d implementation (unless I missed something? feel free to bash me for my noobyness :))

Due to you mentioning funding as a major topic, its also important to keep another thing in mind: The upcoming 1.9 is the last manor 1.x release so the next minor update beyond that will already cost you again from what I've read (that would be 1.9 to 2.0). There was no information on the percentage range of full price we have to expect on that upgrade costs at least not as far as search wanted to tell me and as no such version switch has happened yet there are no experience values from the past. Unity has the benefit that its upgrade to a new major just passed, the next one is 12 - 30 months away (depending on what platform we base the measuring in the 2.x generation on)
I guess we might learn more about the upgrade path etc on shiva 2 next spring or so but it can have an impact on decisions.
Last edited by dreamora on 19 Oct 2010, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
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